Air Dropped Chemical Weapons on D-Day

netcompsys wrote:

Presumably by special you mean chemical, but would not expect these to have been in the bomb dumps of Bomber Command airfields in 1945

I was aware of the dumping of bombs in Cardigan Bay and Beaufort Dyke but I was under the impression that these were dumped off the front of Landing Craft

No, not chemical but 'trial' or discontinued bombs such as the 'Johnny Walker' mine. Air dropped ordnance made in small quantities for attacking special targets but unused and unwanted. Perhaps even standard bombs which could not be defuzed due to anti-handling devices.

Yes, Cardigan Bay and Beauforts Dyke were used post-war for the mass disposal of unwanted military munitions including air-dropped bombs.

Split from a topic about surplus bombs in 1945

For D-Day the plan was for bombs to be ready to use in the proportion 25% chemical and 75% conventional in the case of German first use, which we expected. Do I recall that holdings on airfields included empty munitions with the gas issued in barrels and filled by funnel if needed.

Yes, Cardigan Bay and Beauforts Dyke were used post-war for the mass disposal of unwanted military munitions including air-dropped bombs.

Wasn't Cardigan Bay and Beaufort Dyke also used?

The Beaufort Deep was used long term and 1945 onward the Hurd Deep ha a large amount of mustard gas (25,000 50 gallon barrels) dumped there
The later dumping of mixed toxic's were occurred along the Atlantic deep and the major dumplings and their location recorded

ColinBa wrote:

For D-Day the plan was for bombs to be ready to use in the proportion 25% chemical and 75% conventional in the case of German first use, which we expected. Do I recall that holdings on airfields included empty munitions with the gas issued in barrels and filled by funnel if needed.

Overlord was meticulously planned and to be prepared to drop CW the Forward Filling Stations would have been tasked with types and quantities of weapons to fill and dispatch to airfields. The airfields chosen would need to have manpower trained to manage and load CW and with the appropriate protective clothing.This assumes that bomber type aircraft would load the 30 pound, 65 pound and 250 pound weapons.

For the SC (Spray) type carried externally on Lysander and Hurricane these would, normally, also be supplied charged and boxed from the FFDs. The empty SCs would return to base with the aircraft and could be reused after charging so they would have been returned to an FFD.

Further to my previous post.

S.D. 357, Vol. I, Sect. 2 states:

8. The bombs are normally issued charged to Home Commands. Due, however, to the fragile construction of the bombs, and the consequent possibility of leakage occurring, a percentage of the
bombs issued is supplied empty, so that in the event of leakage, the contents of the leaking bomb may at once be transferred to-a new and empty bomb. Details of the procedure to be adopted for
decanting the charging of a defective bomb are given in S.D.357, Vol. II, Part 2, Sect. 2, Chap. 4.

9. All stocks issued to Overseas Commands consist of empty bombs, and charging is to be done,unless orders are issued to the contrary, as required, by personnel who have completed a C.W. weapons
course, working under the supervision of a fully C.W. weapons trained Officer or N.C.O. The appropriate charging, normally Y.3 or Y.15, is supplied separately in storage drums. The procedure
for charging empty bombs from storage drums is given in Appendix 1 of this Chapter.

My apology. I forgot to mention that the on-base filling was limited to the 65 lb LC Bomb which was little more than a 5 gallon flimsy can.

For those interested in the subject this report makes interesting reading.

www.helcom.fi/wp-content/uploads/2019/10...n-the-Baltic-Sea.pdf

It mentions mustard gas degradation in water and explains why mustard gas behaves differently to viscous mustard gas (with added thickeners)

PS: Sorry about the odd formatting; it came with cut and paste.

Mustard gas. Hydrolysis of mustard gas in sea water occurs in two stages. Thiodiglycol and hydrochloric acid are formed; the former is non-toxic and the latter is neutralized by sea water.
While mustard gas has a half-life of minutes when it hydrolyses in pure water, hydrolysis in sea water occurs more slowly, especially if water temperatures are low; then half-life is measured in
hours. This time scale applies only to dissolved mustard gas, however. Because mustard gas is relatively insoluble, the slower dissolving process becomes the determining factor. The dissolving
process itself depends on many parameters such as salinity, temperature, current speed and the extent to which munitions are covered. Degradation of solid mustard gas can thus take weeks or
years.

Viscous mustard gas is mustard gas to which thickeners have been added. It has a completely different appearance from ordinary mustard gas and reacts differently in physical terms as well.
Its colour ranges from reddish brown / brown green to black and has the consistency of thick paste - something like bee-wax. It is viscous and very sticky. About 20% of the mustard gas
produced was processed into viscous mustard gas. Water-insoluble thickening agents such as polystyrene and montan wax have a crucial effect on its behaviour in the marine environment as
they prevent the mustard gas from reacting with the sea water. Hydrolysis is possible only after the mustard gas has diffused out of the viscous mustard gas.
The thickening agents remain and form the basis of a developing crust on which fine sand and mud particles can also be deposited. This further hinders diffusion of any remaining active parts
of mustard gas. Warfare agent which are contained in lumps of viscous mustard gas can thus be preserved for many years - the bigger the lump of mustard gas, the longer it will be conserved.
Crushing by mechanical means in the sea is made more difficult because the lumps are very elastic and are protected by a leather-like crust. It must, therefore, be assumed that a very long time is needed before viscous mustard gas is broken down into harmless substances. Depending on oceanographic conditions, waves or bottom current can transport lumps of viscous mustard gas, which are heavier than sea water, across the seabed.

{ColinBa wrote: For D-Day the plan was for bombs to be ready to use in the proportion 25% chemical and 75% conventional in the case of German first use, which we expected. Do I recall that holdings on airfields included empty munitions with the gas issued in barrels and filled by funnel if needed.}
COMMENT: My message was merely for info. I would now comment on the response
{Overlord was meticulously planned and to be prepared to drop CW the Forward Filling Stations would have been tasked with types and quantities of weapons to fill and dispatch to airfields. The airfields chosen would need to have manpower trained to manage and load CW and with the appropriate protective clothing. This assumes that bomber type aircraft would load the 30 pound, 65 pound and 250 pound weapons.}
COMMENT: This seems to contain a number of assumptions without foundation.
{For the SC (Spray) type carried externally on Lysander and Hurricane these would, normally, also be supplied charged and boxed from the FFDs. The empty SCs would return to base with the aircraft and could be reused after charging so they would have been returned to an FFD}.
COMMENT: I do not think this was true or relevant.at D-Day
My recollection is that
1. During the period when we were being threatened by invasion we had a plan to bomb our own beach areas in Kent with masses of 65lb “Leakers” with additional support from sprays carried on Lysander’s and Blenheim’s. The complete Order of Battle is shown in great detail in AIR 2/5200. This was a defensive measure.
2. In the period up to D-Day we were prepared to bomb Germany with gas in the ratio of 25/75% in retaliation to their first use. The conventional explosives would break up the buildings and the gas whose effects could be delayed and linger would be most effective. We believed that the Germans would use gas to deny us the beaches and we expected to have to use CW for which we were prepared.

As the consideration was to bomb Germany by from the UK there was no need to issue CW to overseas commands.

So what about the ship that blew up in Bari in 44 with mustard gas on board?