Westland Lysander

29 Aug 2010 13:16 #1 by Peter Kirk
Westland Lysander was created by Peter Kirk
Still going through 800+ documents I photographed at TNA earlier in August and came across something which I found surprising.

In a document dated 6/10/1940 permission was being sought to use an air firing area

"in order that Lysander Pilots may be given an opportunity of practisng front gun firing with the 20mm cannon which they are shortly being equipped."

I don't know of a 20mm Lysander armament fit unless they are inferring the Lysander pilots will be getting aircraft with 20mm cannon. Either way this is new to me.

I assume whatever it was never happened?

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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29 Aug 2010 13:37 #2 by Resmoroh
Replied by Resmoroh on topic Westland Lysander
Presume arming Lysanders with 20mm canon was to improve air fighting capability? A 20mm canon, when fired from an airborne Lysander, would have so much recoil that it would enable the Lysander to do the same as the Harrier's VIFF?? The Lysander would then find itself behind the pursuing 109 (much, presumably, to the amazement of the 109 pilot!!) and could shoot it down - but with only one round because, as outlined above, every time the canon was fired the Lysander would VIFF!!
Need a big Air Firing Area to practice that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Resmoroh

Meteorology is a Science. Good Meteorology is an Art

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29 Aug 2010 16:08 #3 by Peter Kirk
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic Westland Lysander
Most ranges, either air or ground were only cleared for .303 at that time. Even a year later there were probably few 20mm ranges. Agree with the Lysander flying and firing of 20mm. That is why I thought it must be to do with the intended replacement. Tomahawks and later Mustings didn't have 20mm as far as I know.

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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29 Aug 2010 16:11 #4 by Denis
Replied by Denis on topic Westland Lysander
II (AC) squadron changed their Lysanders for Tomahawks then to Mustangs. Doug Reich recently confirmed to me that their Mustangs hadnt got .5 cal machine guns, but 20mm cannon. Maybe this was a reference to a similar squadron seeking permission to use the range with an aircraft, not necessarily a Lysander, but an aircraft fitted with 20mm cannon prior to them changing from Lysanders to another type.

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29 Aug 2010 16:11 #5 by canberra
Replied by canberra on topic Westland Lysander
In the depths of my mind I can recall reading something in Flypast about this. There was also a plan to fit a four gun turret on the Lysander.

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29 Aug 2010 16:18 #6 by Peter Kirk
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic Westland Lysander
The Mustang Mark 1A had 4 X 20mm cannon but that was some time after 1940. I had forgotten that. Yes, I remember the turret Lysander but don't recall any other major conversions.

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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29 Aug 2010 20:11 #7 by Granite
Replied by Granite on topic Westland Lysander
Found a picture of a 20mm Lysander on here www.spitfirespares.com/SpitfireSpares.com/Pages/controls.html you have to page down a fair bit..... looks a very clumbersome installation!

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30 Aug 2010 08:04 #8 by PETERTHEEATER
Replied by PETERTHEEATER on topic Westland Lysander
The image in the link (above) shows two 20mm Oerlikon with 60 round magazines installed externally; despite the slow cruise speed of the Lysander there would not have been an uncontrollable effect from recoil when firing short bursts. If it was rejected operationally in was probably to do with an awkward attack profile and sighting line or maybe that the threat of invasion passed. Clearly attacking anything other than a slow undefended target would have been suicidal. Like the pillbox, defence against invasion required that all possible resources were brought to bear.

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30 Aug 2010 21:45 #9 by hydealfred
Replied by hydealfred on topic Westland Lysander
Inline with the desparate measures during the time of threatened invasion - I found this on the net -

In 1940 at least one Lysander was trialled with a pair of 20mm cannon mounted on the undercarriage (replacing the stub wings); the intention was to use the aircraft for ground attack missions against the threatened German invasion of Britain.

It should be considered that at the time 20mm cannons were not very reliable so the effectiveness would have been in question.

There were also plans to use Tiger Moths to bomb the invasion beaches.

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30 Aug 2010 21:57 #10 by Denis
Replied by Denis on topic Westland Lysander

Inline with the desparate measures during the time of threatened invasion -


I think we were quite good at desperate measures! Pipes pumping fuel into the sea to be ignited, the Home Guard, Tiger Moth bombers, the GHQ lines, the British Resistance Organisation.
'I think I can hear scratching noises Captain Mainwaring!'

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