Airfield in Memphis Belle documentary

PNK;34397 wrote:

"Tosh" is hardly a constructive comment.

Well... that's how a certain magazine reviewed it! I suspect (but have no real proof, because firstly the reviewer did not reveal their identity and secondly the magazine did not bother to answer my enquiry as to why they said it) the comment was made because on the dust-jacket flap we said that we thought the Belle was the most important aircraft of World War Two. Then inside in the one chapter we reserved for stating our own opinions, we went on to explain in detail just why we thought that - along with all the compelling evidence we had to back up the claim that we spread across three pages. We think the reviewer read the flap, but not the chapter inside the book. At least that is my most charitable view - if I was paranoid, I could easily think of more darker reasons!

As to your comment '. I saw some footage (on a free CD?) that showed tbe Belle back at it's birthplace'. 41-24485 was 'born' at Seattle, and to our knowledge (and according to the USAAF Form 41B Maintenance Records for the aircraft we have) the aircraft never went back there. What you probably saw was footage taken either during the 1977-87 restoration, the 2002-2004 stay at Millington US Navy base or the subsequent re-restoration at the NMUSAF near Dayton OH.

will dig the little stukley photos out and re post them!

I was always told that due to the fact 'Hells Angels' was in the race to be first in completing 25 missions that the film crew filmed a lot of footage at Molesworth and that the first few seconds of the film were from the 303rd flightline with Ole Bill B-17. It was also rumored that the production team did not want a name like 'Hells Angels' for the Public Relations that and the dreary conditions at Molesworth sent them packing to Bassingbourne, with great pre war quarters and a more appropriate name 'Memphis Belle who in fact completed the 25 missions a few days after Irl Baldwin’s 'Hell's Angels'. I met Mr Balwin at Molesworth in the mid nineties for a 303rd heritage day. A very humbling experience. See more him at www.303rdbg.com/c-358-baldwin.html

Irl and I at Molesworth
mighty8thaf.preller.us/albums/Molesworth...rl_Baldwin_and_I.jpg

woodster;34417 wrote:

will dig the little stukley photos out and re post them!

Is one of them this one?
mighty8thaf.preller.us/albums/Alconbury-...on/alconbry_B_17.jpg

Brothmark;34421 wrote:

I was always told that due to the fact 'Hells Angels' was in the race to be first in completing 25 missions that the film crew filmed a lot of footage at Molesworth and that the first few seconds of the film were from the 303rd flightline with Ole Bill B-17.

There is a two page spread on pages 230-231 comparing Memphis Belle, Hells Angels, Ira Baldwin and Bob Morgan's 'mission tally. On the face of it Hells Angels reaches 25 credited missions on May 13 1943. Captain Baldwin reached 25 credited missions on May 14 1943. Bob Morgan reached 25 credited missions on May 17 1943. The Memphis Belle itself flew its last combat mission on May 19 1943 - and that was mission 24 for the aircraft.
However, like much with the Memphis Belle story, even that detailed analysis is too simplistic. This table I have quoted from reveals a number of interesting details, not least the fact that the 8th Air Force Command had a highly variable idea as to what constituted the requirements for a ‘completed mission’. The problem of determining a ‘first’ is further compounded by the difficulty in separating ‘man’ from ‘machine’, for the pilot’s mission ‘scoreboard’ is more often as not different from that of ‘his’ aircraft. Most pilots reached their target of 25 by flying more than just the one machine!
Almost all aviation historians today are happy to agree that a ‘successfully completed mission’ for which the aircraft and crew receive credit is one where an aircraft crew takes off, flies over enemy-held territory, drops their bombs on either the primary, secondary or a suitable target of opportunity and then returns back to a base on Allied territory. Dropping their bombs in the ocean, or returning back to base with their bombs still on board their aircraft is not classed as a successfully completed mission.
However, it seems that by the standards used at the time, this seems to be a incorrect, simplistic view, for there are a number of instances at different times when both aircraft returned to their bases with their bombs still on board but the crews were credited with having flown a successful mission.
For example, the first two missions flown by Hell’s Angels saw the aircraft return with her bombs still on board and yet on each occasion her crew were officially credited with a successfully completed mission. There is evidence to suggest that just by crossing into enemy-held territory was enough to be credited with a successful mission - however, this premise has not been applied consistently, for on the 4th March mission to the Renault works outside Paris, Captain Robert Morgan aboard the Memphis Belle got close to but failed to reach the target before turning back - and they were not credited with a successfully completed mission!
We have made an extensive search through 8th Air Force and 91st Bomb Group records but as yet have failed to find any official definition of what constituted a successful mission. From all the known evidence it looks as if in the early days this was decided upon at Group level - possibly as a device to boost morale - for how else can a return to base with the bombs on board be credited as a ‘successful mission’?
This then is the core of the ‘argument’ - which ‘standard’ is to be used? If the aviation historian’s definition is applied, then neither aircraft nor pilots achieved 25 missions by the date specified, although Hell’s Angels is listed as flying 48 before returning to the USA much later for her own publicity tour. However, it could be said that no matter what standards historians apply in hindsight, this is of no importance, for it is what was decided at the time by those involved to create the record of officially credited missions completed that counts - and that record states that of the two aircraft, Hell’s Angels and Captain Baldwin were the ‘first to 25’.
We must also ask to which record should we look to find the recording of such ‘officially credited missions’? The only ones that can be used are the Squadron diaries that record the mission summaries. Here the diarist lists completed missions and those that were aborted for whatever reason. We are forced to assume that these ‘non-abortive’ missions listed by the diariest - and therefore the 91st BG - were classed as being ‘officially credited’. However, from this, at some stage some of the ‘aborted’ missions were counted by Group as ‘credited missions’.
This then raises the question of what would we discover if we had attempted to locate all the records for all the Groups to see which aircraft was THE first to 25? Without doubt, it is highly likely that there were other aircraft in other Groups that achieved 25. The 91st BG themselves may have had six. The 303rd had one for sure and the 305th had at least one, maybe more. This numeric trend suggests that there is a strong possibility that the 306th BG had at least one also. There could therefore, be around eight possible candidates.
It is clear that the War Department used Morgan's log-book of the missions HE flew - in four different aircraft - as a scoreboard for the Memphis Belle - and as we shall see later, this is clearly incorrect. Incidentally, is it worth recording here that despite the many years of being in contact with Bob Morgan, his actual flying log-books were the one thing he never allowed us to see - the documents we have used here are his monthly flight records submitted by his Squadron Commander to Command, which were, of course outside Morgan’s control and the USAAF Form 41B, 41-24485's Maintenance Log as kept by crewchief Joe Giambrone.

As to the first few seconds of the movie, that is definately not Molesworth - those relate to what has been positively identified as what is now called Road Farm, alongside the A1198 Road, also known as ‘Ermine Street, a Roman Road adjacent to and to the north of Bassingbourn airfield. At scene 15, roughly 01:34:21 into the movie there is B-17 parked on hardstanding, with church in background. This is the scene that started this thread. Location: USAAF Station 102 Alconbury, with Little Stukeley Church in background. From outtakes the aircraft has been positively identified as 41-9022 ‘Alabama Exterminator II’ of the 97th Bomb Group. The actual hardstand appears to be number 17 of the 547th Air Depot area. There are a number of different pan-shots and variations of this scene in the outtakes where both the aircraft name and serial can be clearly seen.

However, Hells Angels DOES appear early on in the movie - but no the 303rd one. My records show at scene 21 around 01:50:03 B-17F at dispersal, filmed through roll of barbed wire. LG:M 42-24481 ‘Hells Angels’. This dates scene to being shot before 14th May 1943, when aircraft went went missing in the North Sea. Location: undetermined.

Indeed there is footage of ‘Here’s Old Bill’ B-17F XK:S 42-29673 ‘Old Bill’ 365th BS, 305th BG - as to the location (both before and after it recieved nose damage) this has been impossible to accurately locate.

the very photo brothmark! great photo,try scan my now photo.

GrahamSimons;34429 wrote:

There is a two page spread on pages 230-231 comparing Memphis Belle, Hells Angels, Ira Baldwin and Bob Morgan's 'mission tally. On the face of it Hells Angels reaches 25 credited missions on May 13 1943. Captain Baldwin reached 25 credited missions on May 14 1943. Bob Morgan reached 25 credited missions on May 17 1943. The Memphis Belle itself flew its last combat mission on May 19 1943 - and that was mission 24 for the aircraft.
However, like much with the Memphis Belle story, even that detailed analysis is too simplistic. This table I have quoted from reveals a number of interesting details, not least the fact that the 8th Air Force Command had a highly variable idea as to what constituted the requirements for a ‘completed mission’. The problem of determining a ‘first’ is further compounded by the difficulty in separating ‘man’ from ‘machine’, for the pilot’s mission ‘scoreboard’ is more often as not different from that of ‘his’ aircraft. Most pilots reached their target of 25 by flying more than just the one machine!
Almost all aviation historians today are happy to agree that a ‘successfully completed mission’ for which the aircraft and crew receive credit is one where an aircraft crew takes off, flies over enemy-held territory, drops their bombs on either the primary, secondary or a suitable target of opportunity and then returns back to a base on Allied territory. Dropping their bombs in the ocean, or returning back to base with their bombs still on board their aircraft is not classed as a successfully completed mission.
However, it seems that by the standards used at the time, this seems to be a incorrect, simplistic view, for there are a number of instances at different times when both aircraft returned to their bases with their bombs still on board but the crews were credited with having flown a successful mission.
For example, the first two missions flown by Hell’s Angels saw the aircraft return with her bombs still on board and yet on each occasion her crew were officially credited with a successfully completed mission. There is evidence to suggest that just by crossing into enemy-held territory was enough to be credited with a successful mission - however, this premise has not been applied consistently, for on the 4th March mission to the Renault works outside Paris, Captain Robert Morgan aboard the Memphis Belle got close to but failed to reach the target before turning back - and they were not credited with a successfully completed mission!
We have made an extensive search through 8th Air Force and 91st Bomb Group records but as yet have failed to find any official definition of what constituted a successful mission. From all the known evidence it looks as if in the early days this was decided upon at Group level - possibly as a device to boost morale - for how else can a return to base with the bombs on board be credited as a ‘successful mission’?
This then is the core of the ‘argument’ - which ‘standard’ is to be used? If the aviation historian’s definition is applied, then neither aircraft nor pilots achieved 25 missions by the date specified, although Hell’s Angels is listed as flying 48 before returning to the USA much later for her own publicity tour. However, it could be said that no matter what standards historians apply in hindsight, this is of no importance, for it is what was decided at the time by those involved to create the record of officially credited missions completed that counts - and that record states that of the two aircraft, Hell’s Angels and Captain Baldwin were the ‘first to 25’.
We must also ask to which record should we look to find the recording of such ‘officially credited missions’? The only ones that can be used are the Squadron diaries that record the mission summaries. Here the diarist lists completed missions and those that were aborted for whatever reason. We are forced to assume that these ‘non-abortive’ missions listed by the diariest - and therefore the 91st BG - were classed as being ‘officially credited’. However, from this, at some stage some of the ‘aborted’ missions were counted by Group as ‘credited missions’.
This then raises the question of what would we discover if we had attempted to locate all the records for all the Groups to see which aircraft was THE first to 25? Without doubt, it is highly likely that there were other aircraft in other Groups that achieved 25. The 91st BG themselves may have had six. The 303rd had one for sure and the 305th had at least one, maybe more. This numeric trend suggests that there is a strong possibility that the 306th BG had at least one also. There could therefore, be around eight possible candidates.
It is clear that the War Department used Morgan's log-book of the missions HE flew - in four different aircraft - as a scoreboard for the Memphis Belle - and as we shall see later, this is clearly incorrect. Incidentally, is it worth recording here that despite the many years of being in contact with Bob Morgan, his actual flying log-books were the one thing he never allowed us to see - the documents we have used here are his monthly flight records submitted by his Squadron Commander to Command, which were, of course outside Morgan’s control and the USAAF Form 41B, 41-24485's Maintenance Log as kept by crewchief Joe Giambrone.

As to the first few seconds of the movie, that is definately not Molesworth - those relate to what has been positively identified as what is now called Road Farm, alongside the A1198 Road, also known as ‘Ermine Street, a Roman Road adjacent to and to the north of Bassingbourn airfield. At scene 15, roughly 01:34:21 into the movie there is B-17 parked on hardstanding, with church in background. This is the scene that started this thread. Location: USAAF Station 102 Alconbury, with Little Stukeley Church in background. From outtakes the aircraft has been positively identified as 41-9022 ‘Alabama Exterminator II’ of the 97th Bomb Group. The actual hardstand appears to be number 17 of the 547th Air Depot area. There are a number of different pan-shots and variations of this scene in the outtakes where both the aircraft name and serial can be clearly seen.

However, Hells Angels DOES appear early on in the movie - but no the 303rd one. My records show at scene 21 around 01:50:03 B-17F at dispersal, filmed through roll of barbed wire. LG:M 42-24481 ‘Hells Angels’. This dates scene to being shot before 14th May 1943, when aircraft went went missing in the North Sea. Location: undetermined.

Indeed there is footage of ‘Here’s Old Bill’ B-17F XK:S 42-29673 ‘Old Bill’ 365th BS, 305th BG - as to the location (both before and after it recieved nose damage) this has been impossible to accurately locate.

Lot of info kind of goes along what we were told at Alconbury back in the day and a whole.... lot more. Thanks

photo taken slightly to left to maximise church face hope ok!

Thanks woodster, great comparrison photo.