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Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
- netcompsys
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15 Oct 2020 11:07 - 15 Oct 2020 12:06 #11
by netcompsys
kevin
Replied by netcompsys on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Just a few comments and corrections
Your Dad would have completed his Air Gunners course, presumably in Canada, and received his brevet, before he embarked to travel to the UK
His posting to 19 OTU at Forres would have been to create part of a crew, normaly 6 men at this point, flying Wellingtons (Not a Gunnery course)
Having become part of a crew, they would have trained together and the whole crew would have been posted and stayed together through further training at a Heavy Conversion Unit.
Here they would have collected a flight engineer to make up the 7 man crew of a heavy Bomber. There may have been some crew substitions later due to casualties or sickness but generaly they would have stayed together.
The crew would have had 14 days leave on completion of their OTU course
By this time 7 Group had been formed to take over responsibility for HCUs which had previously been part of the operational Bomber Groups
The organisation was that the Group had a number of "Bases", where a "Base" consisted of a Primary Station and a number of subsidiary Stations. A Base was commanded by an Air Commodore and each Station by a Group Captain,. Each Station would host one or more units like HCUs.
So 71 Base was the Ist Base in 7 Group and was at Lindolme, with sub stations at Sandtoft and Blyton and 1656 HCU was hosted by Lindholme
In 6 Group the crew would have been Canadian, normaly with the exception of the Flight Engineer, who would have been British and they would have flown Halifaxs
74 Base hosted the former 4 Group Halifax HCUs
I surmise that with VE Day being while he was at 74 Base, the requirement for Halifax crews disappearred so that his crew might have been transferred to a Lancaster HCU to retrain, possibly to support Tiger Force which would have flown Lancasters against Japan
VJ Day was August 15th
6 RCAF Group disbanded 31st August 1945
I suggest that by the time he got to 62 Base at Linton On Ouse he had ceased flying (the RCAF squadrons based there had disbanded) and that it and the posting to Topcliffe were simply holding postings until repatriation could be arranged. Both Linton and Topcliffe were 6 Group bases commanded by Canadians so this makes sense
If you had his log book, you would have been able to identify the pilot of the crew, but in general other crew members are not mentioned
Your Dad would have completed his Air Gunners course, presumably in Canada, and received his brevet, before he embarked to travel to the UK
His posting to 19 OTU at Forres would have been to create part of a crew, normaly 6 men at this point, flying Wellingtons (Not a Gunnery course)
Having become part of a crew, they would have trained together and the whole crew would have been posted and stayed together through further training at a Heavy Conversion Unit.
Here they would have collected a flight engineer to make up the 7 man crew of a heavy Bomber. There may have been some crew substitions later due to casualties or sickness but generaly they would have stayed together.
The crew would have had 14 days leave on completion of their OTU course
By this time 7 Group had been formed to take over responsibility for HCUs which had previously been part of the operational Bomber Groups
The organisation was that the Group had a number of "Bases", where a "Base" consisted of a Primary Station and a number of subsidiary Stations. A Base was commanded by an Air Commodore and each Station by a Group Captain,. Each Station would host one or more units like HCUs.
So 71 Base was the Ist Base in 7 Group and was at Lindolme, with sub stations at Sandtoft and Blyton and 1656 HCU was hosted by Lindholme
In 6 Group the crew would have been Canadian, normaly with the exception of the Flight Engineer, who would have been British and they would have flown Halifaxs
74 Base hosted the former 4 Group Halifax HCUs
I surmise that with VE Day being while he was at 74 Base, the requirement for Halifax crews disappearred so that his crew might have been transferred to a Lancaster HCU to retrain, possibly to support Tiger Force which would have flown Lancasters against Japan
VJ Day was August 15th
6 RCAF Group disbanded 31st August 1945
I suggest that by the time he got to 62 Base at Linton On Ouse he had ceased flying (the RCAF squadrons based there had disbanded) and that it and the posting to Topcliffe were simply holding postings until repatriation could be arranged. Both Linton and Topcliffe were 6 Group bases commanded by Canadians so this makes sense
If you had his log book, you would have been able to identify the pilot of the crew, but in general other crew members are not mentioned
kevin
Last edit: 15 Oct 2020 12:06 by netcompsys.
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15 Oct 2020 13:36 #12
by GaryGauthier
Replied by GaryGauthier on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Thank you for your description of a typical sequence of events. It's quite helpful and may have resolved a lot of my issues in this research project.
Yes; Dad did take some gunnery training in Canada, but he definitely took additional formal training at No. 19 OTU. I have his R.A.F. Form 5037B "R.A.F. – Training Report" from "No. 19 Operational Training Unit", which proves he took an "MU/AirGunner" course there. It shows him as being posted from "3 P.R.C., taking the course from "28/11/44" to "7/3/45" (including his air and ground gunnery scores), then being posted to "74 Base".
I should note that I do have one picture that appears to be him "posing" in the cockpit of a Halifax. There isn't much known about this photo, so it could have been at 19 OTU or later at 74 Base. I tend to think the latter since he told me of how the pilot would sometimes "unofficially" have him fly. I doubt that would have happened until they'd formed a crew and built up trust.
Dad is pictured with 6 other fellows and a Lancaster. So; it had to be have been taken at a conversion unit. My Dad and JB655 were only ever at the same place once, at Lindholme, and Lindholme was the only base that 1656 had during its existence. That means that the picture had to have been taken at Lindhome.
I also have his "Declaration for continuing service in the R.C.A.F.". This document shows that he was with 1656 H.C., Group 7, Bomber Command. It states he was an "Air Gunner" and his "Present type of aircraft" was the Lancaster. It does state that the "Aircraft on which most proficient" was the Halifax. The ORBs of 403 Squadron, Tuesday, June 5, 1945, notes, "The Canadian Government policy on the future of the RCAF serving overseas has been announced, with all personnel having to sign a declaration showing their preference of continuing service either in the Far East, Occupation of Europe, or Western Hemisphere." This means that the form info is from about June 5, 1945. Again, this is during the period that Dad was at Lindholme. So that confirms things even more.
It makes sense that Lindholme was his last "flying" posting since I don't see any more pictures showing him with an aircraft afterwards.
Yes; Dad did take some gunnery training in Canada, but he definitely took additional formal training at No. 19 OTU. I have his R.A.F. Form 5037B "R.A.F. – Training Report" from "No. 19 Operational Training Unit", which proves he took an "MU/AirGunner" course there. It shows him as being posted from "3 P.R.C., taking the course from "28/11/44" to "7/3/45" (including his air and ground gunnery scores), then being posted to "74 Base".
I should note that I do have one picture that appears to be him "posing" in the cockpit of a Halifax. There isn't much known about this photo, so it could have been at 19 OTU or later at 74 Base. I tend to think the latter since he told me of how the pilot would sometimes "unofficially" have him fly. I doubt that would have happened until they'd formed a crew and built up trust.
Dad is pictured with 6 other fellows and a Lancaster. So; it had to be have been taken at a conversion unit. My Dad and JB655 were only ever at the same place once, at Lindholme, and Lindholme was the only base that 1656 had during its existence. That means that the picture had to have been taken at Lindhome.
I also have his "Declaration for continuing service in the R.C.A.F.". This document shows that he was with 1656 H.C., Group 7, Bomber Command. It states he was an "Air Gunner" and his "Present type of aircraft" was the Lancaster. It does state that the "Aircraft on which most proficient" was the Halifax. The ORBs of 403 Squadron, Tuesday, June 5, 1945, notes, "The Canadian Government policy on the future of the RCAF serving overseas has been announced, with all personnel having to sign a declaration showing their preference of continuing service either in the Far East, Occupation of Europe, or Western Hemisphere." This means that the form info is from about June 5, 1945. Again, this is during the period that Dad was at Lindholme. So that confirms things even more.
It makes sense that Lindholme was his last "flying" posting since I don't see any more pictures showing him with an aircraft afterwards.
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15 Oct 2020 14:03 #13
by GaryGauthier
Replied by GaryGauthier on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Regarding:
"I suggest that by the time he got to 62 Base at Linton On Ouse he had ceased flying (the RCAF squadrons based there had disbanded) and that it and the posting to Topcliffe were simply holding postings until repatriation could be arranged. Both Linton and Topcliffe were 6 Group bases commanded by Canadians so this makes sense"
I have a deficiency of kit card issued at East Moor on 1 August 1945. This implies that he was likely at the Eastmoor sub-station of No 62 Base rather than the main base itself. I note that the RAFWeb site shows that No 1679 HC Flt. was based at East Moor from 18 June 1943 until it went to Wombleton on 13 December 1945. That doesn't mean he flew there nor does it mean he was attached to No 1679 HC Flt. Unfortunately; the site also shows 62 Base and its sub-stations were only active from 18 June 1943 to 14 July 1945, which is inconsistent with the flight or my Dad being present at East Moor on 1 August 1945.
Is there any way of resolving this disconnect?
"I suggest that by the time he got to 62 Base at Linton On Ouse he had ceased flying (the RCAF squadrons based there had disbanded) and that it and the posting to Topcliffe were simply holding postings until repatriation could be arranged. Both Linton and Topcliffe were 6 Group bases commanded by Canadians so this makes sense"
I have a deficiency of kit card issued at East Moor on 1 August 1945. This implies that he was likely at the Eastmoor sub-station of No 62 Base rather than the main base itself. I note that the RAFWeb site shows that No 1679 HC Flt. was based at East Moor from 18 June 1943 until it went to Wombleton on 13 December 1945. That doesn't mean he flew there nor does it mean he was attached to No 1679 HC Flt. Unfortunately; the site also shows 62 Base and its sub-stations were only active from 18 June 1943 to 14 July 1945, which is inconsistent with the flight or my Dad being present at East Moor on 1 August 1945.
Is there any way of resolving this disconnect?
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15 Oct 2020 14:04 - 15 Oct 2020 14:06 #14
by netcompsys
kevin
Replied by netcompsys on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Good to know that my interpretation of his service record makes sense, however some things are absolute...
1) 19 OTU did not operate the Halifax
2) He would have been a fully qualified Air Gunner before he left Canada.
The MU in MU/Air Gunner almost certainly refers to Mid Upper as I Mid Upper Turret
Just as the crew had been practising learning the techniques of working together they would have been practising their skills individualy at the same time, so the OTU course would have included the crew carrying out bombing practice as well as gunnery practice. Also where the equipment they were to use on ops differed from that they used in training they would undertake extra courses.
The individual crew members as well as the crew as a whole would be required to reach the required level of proficiency before they moved on together
1) 19 OTU did not operate the Halifax
2) He would have been a fully qualified Air Gunner before he left Canada.
The MU in MU/Air Gunner almost certainly refers to Mid Upper as I Mid Upper Turret
Just as the crew had been practising learning the techniques of working together they would have been practising their skills individualy at the same time, so the OTU course would have included the crew carrying out bombing practice as well as gunnery practice. Also where the equipment they were to use on ops differed from that they used in training they would undertake extra courses.
The individual crew members as well as the crew as a whole would be required to reach the required level of proficiency before they moved on together
kevin
Last edit: 15 Oct 2020 14:06 by netcompsys.
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15 Oct 2020 14:18 #15
by GaryGauthier
Replied by GaryGauthier on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Kevin;
Your input is very much appreciated and is helping me to work through apparent inconsistencies in what I'm seeing in his records.
Good to know that the Halifax photo had to be at 74 Base.
Here are some notes relating to your last post.
1) His "Repatriates Interview Report" shows that he had flown in Wellingtons. It take it that this pertained to the aircraft used at 19 OTU?
2) Yes; he had fully qualified when he left Canada. So; the sheet I have must be for additional training, presumably using Wellingtons.
Your input is very much appreciated and is helping me to work through apparent inconsistencies in what I'm seeing in his records.
Good to know that the Halifax photo had to be at 74 Base.
Here are some notes relating to your last post.
1) His "Repatriates Interview Report" shows that he had flown in Wellingtons. It take it that this pertained to the aircraft used at 19 OTU?
2) Yes; he had fully qualified when he left Canada. So; the sheet I have must be for additional training, presumably using Wellingtons.
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15 Oct 2020 14:43 #16
by netcompsys
kevin
Replied by netcompsys on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
1679 HCU was formed to train crews on the radial engined Lancaster II in May 1943
It left East Moor in December 1943 for Wombleton, where I think it must have disbanded shortly after
It left East Moor in December 1943 for Wombleton, where I think it must have disbanded shortly after
kevin
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15 Oct 2020 14:54 #17
by GaryGauthier
Replied by GaryGauthier on topic Crew names of Lancaster Mk III, JB655, code BL, 31 May 1945 to 9 July 1945?
Thank you. Good to know that 1679 wasn't at East Moor at the time. Obviously, the RAFWeb site made a mistake in their table dates. That's a bit unsettling.
Also; my Dad's posting to No.62 Base means that it existed as a base even after the dates stated on the RAFWeb site.
Perhaps there is a better source you could suggest for me to use in comparing against his postings? (The RAFWeb site doesn't give references I can check.)
Also; my Dad's posting to No.62 Base means that it existed as a base even after the dates stated on the RAFWeb site.
Perhaps there is a better source you could suggest for me to use in comparing against his postings? (The RAFWeb site doesn't give references I can check.)
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